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Author Topic: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.  (Read 1104 times)

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coffejohn

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Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« on: May 19, 2017, 22:01 »

Electric vehicles to cost the same as conventional cars by 2018

From; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/19/electric-vehicles-cost-conventional-cars-2018/


Quote

The cost of owning an electric car will fall to the same level as petrol-powered vehicles next year, according to bold new analysis from UBS which will send shockwaves through the automobile industry.

Experts from the investment bank’s “evidence lab” made the prediction after tearing apart one of the current generation of electric cars to examine the economics of electric vehicles (EVs).

They found that costs of producing EVs were far lower than previously thought but there is still great potential to make further savings, driving down the price of electric cars.

Quote

As a result, UBS forecasts that the “total cost of consumer ownership can reach parity with combustion engines from 2018”, with this likely to happen in Europe first.

“This will create an inflexion point for demand,” the analysts said. “We raise our 2025 forecast for EV sales by ~50pc to 14.2m -  14pc of global car sales.”


Quote

If the prediction comes to pass, traditional car industry giants could face ruin. Germany’s Volkswagen Group - the world’s biggest car company - is racing to catch up with rivals’ investment levels in electric drivetrains, the components which deliver the power into the wheels, having largely ignored the technology in the past.

UBS’s research was to help understand what it called the “most disruptive car category since the Model T Ford”. The findings are based on its deconstruction of a Chevy Bolt, which it considered to be “the world’s first mass-market EV, with a range of more than 200 miles”.

Quote

Professor David Bailey, car industry expert at Aston University, said: “If this really is the moment that the car industry reaches parity then the inflexion point is far earlier than anyone was expecting.”

Ian Fletcher, principal automotive analyst at  IHS Markit, added: “We are not going to see the death of diesel or petrol anytime soon but manufacturers are weighing up the investment cost of traditional engines against electric, as well as the levies they face over the emissions of their fleets.”

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Lugdu

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 22:18 »
Les voitures électriques sont-elles plus lourdes que les voitures essence ?
Quand pensez-vous que le problème des batteries sera résolu ?

coffejohn

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 23:18 »
Les voitures électriques sont-elles plus lourdes que les voitures essence ?
Quand pensez-vous que le problème des batteries sera résolu ?


I doubt it as they have less mechanical parts and do not have to carry liquid fuel, being less mechanically stressed I would think they can have a lighter structure; it`s worth noting that lithium batteries are lighter than lead acid batteries.

Battery development is problematic and depends upon the drivers needs, some require range while others small size for city cars. I`ll try to follow this as I am thinking of going electric in the near future; although on a cycle rather than a car which I use rarely now.
 
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selber

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 23:44 »
I also think the electric car will come faster . But not so fast . From my point of view, the electric car still has a great disadvantage for a longer time . The low usability, due to low flexibility . Due to long charging time , too little coverage charging facilities . Add to this came the thing that is for the customer " driving pleasure " and " self-presentation " . We all know that it is unreasonable and expensive to drive with a large SUV, which has never seen any terrain, to carry buns . But people do it . Customers are just not ready to make any concessions for the planet . With wishes and demands already , but not with personal do . And to the others - VW does not have its problem exclusively . All major manufacturers have the same problem . This is the dependence on the existing market that needs to be served . This devours the enormous resources . Small electro manufacturers do not have this problem , but they lack resources . The big could become licensees of the little ones .
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 00:00 by selber »

coffejohn

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2017, 13:13 »
--The low usability, due to low flexibility . Due to long charging time , too little coverage charging facilities . -- All major manufacturers have the same problem . This is the dependence on the existing market that needs to be served . This devours the enormous resources . Small electro manufacturers do not have this problem , but they lack resources . The big could become licensees of the little ones .

I think electric will suit users in larger towns and cities as a second commuter car; keeping a petrol car for general use.

As to electric car manufactures being under resourced I am not so sure; Tesla is not short of a dollar and most of the large car makers are about to have a hybrid on sale.

It`s worth noting that electric cars require less investment as their makers buy in a large percentage of the components and these components tend to be low cost.

I think the problem areas are going to be centered on battery development and this is certainly were the big money is being spent, not only for vehicle use but home use with solar panels and mass storage of electric power at small generating plants.

 
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selber

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2017, 13:22 »
I think electric will suit users in larger towns and cities as a second commuter car; keeping a petrol car for general use.

As to electric car manufactures being under resourced I am not so sure; Tesla is not short of a dollar and most of the large car makers are about to have a hybrid on sale.

It`s worth noting that electric cars require less investment as their makers buy in a large percentage of the components and these components tend to be low cost.

I think the problem areas are going to be centered on battery development and this is certainly were the big money is being spent, not only for vehicle use but home use with solar panels and mass storage of electric power at small generating plants.
You're right . With all . I just think it takes longer . Pysics is a natural science and is subject to the laws of nature . If you run a 2000 watt vacuum cleaner for an hour, this is 2 kilowatt hours . How much more energy does a car need ? A car needs more than an socket , and we can not even make the socket mobile .
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 13:31 by selber »

selber

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2017, 19:12 »
I think electric will suit users in larger towns and cities as a second commuter car; keeping a petrol car for general use.

As to electric car manufactures being under resourced I am not so sure; Tesla is not short of a dollar and most of the large car makers are about to have a hybrid on sale.

It`s worth noting that electric cars require less investment as their makers buy in a large percentage of the components and these components tend to be low cost.

I think the problem areas are going to be centered on battery development and this is certainly were the big money is being spent, not only for vehicle use but home use with solar panels and mass storage of electric power at small generating plants.
My "you're right" was too little . In cities with smog problems it will go very fast . Packet services are already switching to electric, they can recharge at night . I could imagine it also for taxis .

Lugdu

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 19:45 »
Que va-t-on faire des batteries usagées ? Quelle durée de vie ont-elles ? Qu'en fait-on après ?

coffejohn

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2017, 21:06 »
Que va-t-on faire des batteries usagées ? Quelle durée de vie ont-elles ? Qu'en fait-on après ?

How long lithium batteries last is not yet established as the current generation are only just coming to the end of their expected life and are being taken in part exchange by some manufacturers.

Recycling is not economic as the components are of low value and lithium is a common element of little hazard; once again the problem is only just appearing on the industries radar.

Doubtless both issues will gain importance as hybrid cars become more common.
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selber

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2017, 03:57 »

Recycling is not economic as the components are of low value and lithium is a common element of little hazard; once again the problem is only just appearing on the industries radar.


That is not completely right . Lithium is scarce. The more is needed, the more expensive. Then recycle is worth it. The Fraunhofer Institute thinks at not too high demand, and with recycling, the reserves would be enough to 2051st . With the conditions you mentioned - high demand, no recyclin, not even so long. And another problem. The more cars with lithium batteries, the higher the price . I read the slogan under your comments, and have sympathy for it. But desire does not always create opportunities . The breakthrough could occur overnight if you find something other than lithium .
http://www.isi.fraunhofer.de/isi-wAssets/docs/t/de/publikationen/Angebot-Nachfrage-Lithium-Elektromobilitaet.pdf

Sorry, in such specific questions I'm not able to find other links than German.

coffejohn

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2017, 23:31 »
That is not completely right . Lithium is scarce. The more is needed, the more expensive. Then recycle is worth it. The Fraunhofer Institute thinks at not too high demand, and with recycling, the reserves would be enough to 2051st . With the conditions you mentioned - high demand, no recyclin, not even so long. And another problem. The more cars with lithium batteries, the higher the price . I read the slogan under your comments, and have sympathy for it. But desire does not always create opportunities . The breakthrough could occur overnight if you find something other than lithium .
http://www.isi.fraunhofer.de/isi-wAssets/docs/t/de/publikationen/Angebot-Nachfrage-Lithium-Elektromobilitaet.pdf

Sorry, in such specific questions I'm not able to find other links than German.

Lithium scarcity; my understanding is that it is scarce in it`s elemental form but common in combination with other elements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Terrestrial

Other options are being researched which I think will replace lithium eventually. One I like is Super Capacitors; 


Quick charge! Supercapacitor tram unveiled in China

Quote
Published on 2 Aug 2016

China's first independently designed supercapacitor tram rolled off the production line in central China's Hunan Province on Monday. It operates without external wires and can run for 3 to 5 km after a 30-second full charge.

Also;


Replacing My Car Battery with Capacitors! 12V BoostPack Update

Quote
Published on 8 Apr 2013

Testing to see if capacitors can make a traditional 12V battery obsolete. Plus an update on the original BoostPack.



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coffejohn

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 13:40 »

How does an Electric Car work ? | Tesla Model S




Quote
Published on 30 May 2017

Electric cars are making big waves in the automobile world. These noise-free, pollution-free and high-performance vehicles are expected to make their I.C. engine counterparts obsolete by 2025. This video will unveil the hidden technologies behind the Tesla Model S, which recently became the world’s fastest accelerating car. We will see how electric cars have achieved superior performance by analyzing the technology behind the induction motor, inverter, lithium ion battery power source, regenerative braking and above all, the synchronized vehicle mechanism, in a logical, step-by-step manner. The working of Tesla car is explained here with help of animation.

Please support us at Patreon.com so that we can add one more member to the team and will be able to release 2 educational videos/month.
https://www.patreon.com/LearnEngineering

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Lugdu

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 19:09 »
Je n'ai pas compris combien de km une telle voiture peut-elle rouler en une seule fois svp ?

coffejohn

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2017, 21:02 »
Je n'ai pas compris combien de km une telle voiture peut-elle rouler en une seule fois svp ?

Quoted figures range from about 140k to 350k but these may be laboratory figures; still not enough for country driving but acceptable for town commuting?

Hence the winder fitted to the boot lid. :)
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coffejohn

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Re: Electric vehicles; the power of the battery.
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2017, 13:04 »
Je n'ai pas compris combien de km une telle voiture peut-elle rouler en une seule fois svp ?

Further to your question this article may help;

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/motoring-news/toyota-electric-cars-ev-recharging-battery-all-solid-state-2022-a7858616.html


Quote
Toyota is working on an electric car powered by a new type of battery that significantly increases driving range and reduces charging time, aiming to begin sales in 2022, the Chunichi Shimbun daily reported on Tuesday.

Toyota's new electric car, to be built on an all-new platform, will use all-solid-state batteries, allowing it to be recharged in just a few minutes, the newspaper said, without citing sources.

By contrast, current electric vehicles (EVs), which use lithium-ion batteries, need 20-30 minutes to recharge even with fast chargers and typically have a range of just 300-400 kilometres (185-250 miles).

Toyota has decided to sell the new model in Japan as early as 2022, the paper said. A Toyota spokeswoman said the company could not immediately comment on the report.
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