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Author Topic: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban  (Read 997 times)

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Conti

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2017, 12:04 »
@Conti: Do you know this book from David Engels? http://www.europa-verlag.com/buecher/auf-dem-weg-ins-imperium/

Its a modern version of Oswald Spenglers "Untergang des Abendlandes" and you seem to be in the perfect mood to read it:

I think I read a review of the book on some Italian site, possibly ilfoglio.it. You're right, it definitely corresponds to my state of mind and on top of that I admire Octavian Augustus.

The above picture is a statue of Augustus in the Roman area of Turin.





selber

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 10:31 »
I think I read a review of the book on some Italian site, possibly ilfoglio.it. You're right, it definitely corresponds to my state of mind and on top of that I admire Octavian Augustus.

The above picture is a statue of Augustus in the Roman area of Turin.


It is again a very different comment, but here nothing happens and every comment is better than no comment . You remember the old Rome . That has been lost many centuries ago . But perhaps one can nevertheless find parallels to today and our culture, among other reasons for the downfall . A politician who was unpopular in Germany at one time spoke of "late Roman decadence" with regard to Germany . We do not like that . True or not, was there this in Rome ? Rome did not go under because it lost wars . Rome lost wars because the Romans " went too well " . Many lost the ability and the will to fight for their existence, or those who did not lost it , had Rome itself , as the greatest enemy . Rome attracted people from all over the world, or brought them as slaves . Rome lost its identity . Too little Romans called Rome our Rome . This is, I think, something that threatens the Europeans. Not just because of immigration . We have a demanding attitude to our societies . We have created rights faster than the ability to meet these rights . I do not mean the executive . I mean our ability to recognize rights . We alienate ourselves from ourselves . We learn what is good and right , but in unsereren Inside we find much wrong . There is a contradiction between what we want to be and what we are . An example - man and woman are not equal, men and women know this . But we do not want to consider differences . I see such contradictions in many questions , we want to break social constraints and create new constraints . But the new constraints do not come from society, but from small ideational predecessors . The dream of Unlimited Freedom is to free us from duty . But if we have no duties, then there is no sense in life and no future. People are to look for their place, but no one takes care of them, no orientation points, no guidelines . In Germany there is a " Leitkulturdebatte " . It poses the question -what is our culture? And we find no answer, every idea is seen as a compulsion, as something which one may desire, but not demand. In the end, everyone is talking about the basic law. If this is our culture, then we have none.

selber

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2017, 23:03 »

selber

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2017, 11:33 »
@coffejohn
Have my last post removed. You have seen.
Did it because it was unfair. Islam is not guilt, guilt is the fanaticism of many Muslims.

coffejohn

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2017, 00:25 »
@coffejohn
Have my last post removed. You have seen.
Did it because it was unfair. Islam is not guilt, guilt is the fanaticism of many Muslims.

I would take a more nuanced position. I, as someone without religious tenancies, see Islam and other belief systems as having a social dimension. They shape a nations values and political beliefs.

 We in Europe have a history of wars inspired by religious differences; thankfully behind us. The last thing we need now is to import another cultures religious conflicts; a conflict described as a "religious civil war" by the subject of the following video;



It should be said that the Gatestone Institute is a US right wing think tank; if that is not a contradiction in terms in Trump`s America.


Go solar, go slow.

selber

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2017, 23:58 »
@coffejohn
I totally share your opinion . But the problem is not Islam, but the Middle Ages where Islam is located . In the Middle Ages , it would also be us bad to publicly testify to our unbelief . Religion is a private matter for Christians and atheists . Not for Muslims. My whole family are atheists, but one brother is married to a beliving Catholic, the other to a budhist. These have no problem with my brothers' disbelief . Muslim women would have a problem with that, and if not, then the family . Muslims exclude themselves and are not excluded . But when Muslims are majority, everyone else is excluded . I am really Islamophobe . In Germany there is an enforceable right to asylum, for every citizen of the earth.If asylum is denied , the asylum seeker has the right to challenge the refusal in court . This right was written by the victors in the constitution . A sacred cow that no one dares to touch , although we could . But it is also the case that no European country can really resist mass immigration . GB is an island north from Europe , your luck. Greeks and Italians are grateful when the immigrants continue to move north. They can not stop the immigrants. Our humanity, the human right ,prevent us from defending our limitations. But if we give up the human right, we would lose it for ourselves too.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 00:04 by selber »

coffejohn

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2017, 13:26 »
@coffejohn
-- But the problem is not Islam, but the Middle Ages where Islam is located . In the Middle Ages , it would also be us bad to publicly testify to our unbelief .--

We in England had the same problem with the Holy Roman Empire until Henry 8th took us out of the Catholic Church`s clutches.

Islam needs it`s own Henry, however I doubt they will find one.

As for your asylum laws; we have the same issue with the ECJ and have decided to solve the problem by leaving the EU.

I see that Steinmeier has banged heads together, do you think a forced coalition will work in the long term?
 
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Lugdu

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2017, 13:54 »
"Islam needs it`s own Henry, however I doubt they will find one."

Je crois que certains islam ont des réformateurs (il y a pas un islam) : mais l'islam n'a pas de hiérarchie comme l'église papale ou réformée, ni de clergé (sauf en Iran). Chaque croyant est lié à dieu directement et non à l'imam. Donc chacun peut être un réformateur ou un conservateur ou un rétrograde, mais cela ne fait pas de changement.
Il semble que les archaïques aient une façon de se faire connaître, reconnaître et suivre plus importante que les réformateurs, plus discrets.
L'islam n'est pas monolithe. Certains islam évoluent, mais des personnes prennent en otages des croyants comme des manipulateurs.

coffejohn

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2017, 23:45 »
"Islam needs it`s own Henry, however I doubt they will find one."

--
L'islam n'est pas monolithe. Certains islam évoluent, mais des personnes prennent en otages des croyants comme des manipulateurs.


I suppose that the question we have to ask is " do we in Europe wait for Islam to reform itself or distance ourselves while it attempts to do so - or not "?


Go solar, go slow.

selber

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2017, 10:43 »
I suppose that the question we have to ask is " do we in Europe wait for Islam to reform itself or distance ourselves while it attempts to do so - or not "?
We do not even wait for it. We accept every religion unconditionally. Our law is enough for us.What's against the law is illegal and is persecuted. What is not against the law, is fine. Basically us do too much just not care.We have overstretched our freedom, the freedom of the individual does not allow a common will.Each of us wants something, but we do not want or demand anything.

selber

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2017, 10:59 »
"Islam needs it`s own Henry, however I doubt they will find one."

Je crois que certains islam ont des réformateurs (il y a pas un islam) : mais l'islam n'a pas de hiérarchie comme l'église papale ou réformée, ni de clergé (sauf en Iran). Chaque croyant est lié à dieu directement et non à l'imam. Donc chacun peut être un réformateur ou un conservateur ou un rétrograde, mais cela ne fait pas de changement.
Il semble que les archaïques aient une façon de se faire connaître, reconnaître et suivre plus importante que les réformateurs, plus discrets.
L'islam n'est pas monolithe. Certains islam évoluent, mais des personnes prennent en otages des croyants comme des manipulateurs.

I do not know how it is in France, but in Germany mosques are financed by Saudi Arabia and Turkey. From the respective governments! In Germany we say - who pays determines the music.It is about the interpretation sovereignty, Imane, or those who pay the , have more power and influence to interpret religion than the individual Muslim. We are all free to think, but all our thinking is influenced, and that influence can be bought. In Islamic countries certain influence is simply forbidden.

Lugdu

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2017, 12:17 »
I suppose that the question we have to ask is " do we in Europe wait for Islam to reform itself or distance ourselves while it attempts to do so - or not "?
De notre point de vue européen de citoyen, nous n'avons pas à attendre. Mais beaucoup de musulmans ont déjà compris le coran d'une manière adaptée : ils sont tellement adaptés qu'on ne les remarque plus. Seuls les rétrogrades nous aveuglent (et ils font tout pour cela). Ils font aussi pression sur les plus évolués et les plus fragiles. Ce sont donc avec ces 2 derniers que nous pouvons vivre…
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 12:28 by Lugdu »

Lugdu

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2017, 12:26 »
I do not know how it is in France, but in Germany mosques are financed by Saudi Arabia and Turkey. From the respective governments! In Germany we say - who pays determines the music.It is about the interpretation sovereignty, Imane, or those who pay the , have more power and influence to interpret religion than the individual Muslim. We are all free to think, but all our thinking is influenced, and that influence can be bought. In Islamic countries certain influence is simply forbidden.
En France, en théorie, ce sont les fidèles qui financent leurs lieux de culte. Comme les musulmans n'étaient pas assez aisés pour cela, ils ont reçu des financements étrangers… Donc cela revient au même qu'en Allemagne.
Le financement d'investissement est une chose, il y a aussi le financement de fonctionnement ; là la France a fait une imbécilité de taille. Elle a permis, même favoriser (je crois) l'arrivée d'imams étrangers (venant des pays financeurs comme l'Algérie, le Maroc, la Turquie, l'Arabie-Saoudite ou le Koweit) pour animer les mosquées. Or ces responsables n'étaient pas adaptés aux situations françaises et ont mal guidé les croyants. Il y a même eu des cas où ces imams et leur famille ne parlaient que peu le français, que dire de leur connaissance des lois, des coutumes et de notre histoire = catastrophe.
Maintenant il y a une formation universitaire pour les responsables. Certains imams ont été chassés, d'autres non, sans que l'on comprenne pourquoi. C'est pourquoi certains croyants sont pris en otage…
Normalement les imams locaux (nés en France) devraient être favorisés.

coffejohn

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2017, 12:28 »
De notre point de vue européen de citoyen, nous n'avons pas à attendre. Mais beaucoup de musulmans ont déjà compris le coran d'une manière adaptée : ils sont tellement adaptés qu'on ne les remarque plus. Seuls les rétrogrades nous aveuglent (et ils font tout pour cela). Ils font aussi pression sur les plus évolués et les plus fragiles. Ce sont donc sur ces 2 derniers que nous devons vivre

Empty drums make the most noise.

Sadly moderate Muslims suffer more than non Muslims but that is not a reason for non Muslims to accept the importation of violence into our communities. I accept that there is an argument that western policies have acerbated the problem but when push comes to shove our governments job is to protect "us" not "them".

This argument may not be acceptable in France with it`s policy of treating French colonies as being an integral part of France but C'Est la Vie.
 
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selber

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Re: Steven Gern on Muslim Ban
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2017, 22:56 »
Donc cela revient au même qu'en Allemagne.
That's enough for me . Foreigners finance the mosques. Would you allow the foreigner to finance French parties? Islam does not separate religion and politics and you allow as we do , that Saudis make politics in France.Religious freedom can, and is abused.In Germany, the Imane can not even speak German, and they are directly on the payroll Erdogans or Saudis. It is not against the law and we do not care. That's what I meant.