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Lugdu

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Re: Catalans; succeed or fail they win.
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2017, 11:47 »
Élections du 21 décembre 17 en Catalogne : résultats
*82% de participation : tout le monde s'est exprimé ou presque… Les résultats sont donc représentatifs.
MAIS
-70/135 sièges pour les indépendantistes (en 3 partis)
-40?% des suffrages pour eux
-25% des suffrages pour les unionistes ! (si j'ai bien calculé)
1/1 partout : balle au centre :-=

*On n'est pas plus avancé qu'avant, vu de l'extérieur, et j'ai des doutes concernant l'appréhension de la situation vue de l'intérieur…

1 info en espagnol
< http://euroefe.euractiv.es/1310_regiones/5033159_tras-las-elecciones-catalanas-comienza-el-proceso-para-la-formacion-de-gobierno.html >
1 info en anglais
< http://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/pro-independence-parties-win-catalan-elections/ >
2 info en français
< http://www.euractiv.fr/section/elections/news/pro-independence-parties-win-catalan-elections/ >
< http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2017/12/21/elections-regionales-en-catalogne-les-partis-independantistes-conservent-la-majorite-absolue_5233136_3214.html >
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 12:25 by Lugdu »

Lugdu

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Indépendance des Régions
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2017, 18:33 »
Après le Brexit, il y aura 81 régions européennes. Si chacune demande son indépendance, comment se gouvernera l'Union Européenne avec 81 représentants ? autant de ministres de Finances, autant ministres de l'Intérieur, ou des Affaires Étrangères ou de la Culture ?

coffejohn

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Re: Indépendance des Régions
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2017, 00:21 »
After Brexit, there will be 81 European regions [/ b]. If each one asks for its independence, how will the European Union be governed with 81 representatives? so many finance ministers, both ministers of the interior, or foreign affairs or culture?

We have the problem now with the 28 states and it is intractable, except by coercion. This is of course why Macron is advocating a strengthening of EU institutions; his problem being that without an overbearingly powerful Merkel his proposals will not work.

Had the EU not imposed the Euro on it`s citizens this question would not be so important, defense could have been left to NATO and foreign affairs to the USA. But the Euro requires a high degree of co-ordination of governance, as shown by the Greek tragedy.

This is why the EU cannot allow fragmentation as in Catalonia or Scotland; if either breaks away they will be treated to the same economic warfare as Greece was when it dared to challenge the troika. Perhaps the Commission welcomes the Catalonian challenge as an opportunity to flex it`s muscles and in so doing frighten other upstarts; it has attempted this with the UK and had some success.



   
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selber

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Re: Indépendance des Régions
« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2017, 01:03 »
if either breaks away they will be treated to the same economic warfare as Greece was when it dared to challenge the troika.



 
There was a way for Greece break out -  to give up the euro . But that, they feared more than the troika . In the case of Catalonia , it would be difficult to separate the Spanish debt from the Catalan, similar to the Brexit . But I can not imagine a Greek scenario . Greece has dug its own pit themselves .
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 01:36 by selber »

coffejohn

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Re: Indépendance des Régions
« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2017, 11:08 »
There was a way for Greece break out -  to give up the euro . But that, they feared more than the troika . In the case of Catalonia , it would be difficult to separate the Spanish debt from the Catalan, similar to the Brexit . But I can not imagine a Greek scenario . Greece has dug its own pit themselves .

I use Greece as an example of the use of EU power to defend itself against dissent, we differ on the culpability of Greece but that is not my issue here.

The Euro and T2 debt will as you suggest be the death of Catalan separatism, as it will be the death of the nation state within the EU after we leave; as I now reluctantly accept.

I think the Greek scenario will be the model used by the EU to crush dissent; not in such a crude form as the troika have learned lessons and would not dare to be so crude with a more powerful and solvent member state. They have also been bruised by the UK`s push back in the face of EU Commission overreach and incompetence. But I am in no doubt that over time the EU`s institutions will tame all dissent within the "Empire"; I recall you expressed some admiration for a certain Roman Emperor, how would you feel about Macron as the new Napoleon of the EU.?
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Lugdu

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Re: Catalans; succeed or fail they win.
« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2017, 13:57 »
Alors que j'habite à 2h de Genève, je n'y vais jamais. Ces voisins sont complèment occultés dans notre esprit, bien que francophones. En comparaison, on se tourne plus vers l'Italie que vers la Suisse. Est-ce à cause de l'Union Européenne ? Est-ce à cause des mentalités ? Est-ce à cause de l'histoire ? Je ne sais… et c'est étrange.
En est-il de même avec les Belges dans le Nord de la France ? Malheureusement nous n'avons ni membre belge, ni hélvète sur notre forum.

Ce préambule, pour dire que je ne pense jamais à consulter la presse genevoise… mea culpa, car elle est aussi intéressante que la presse parisienne ! ;)

Et nous voilà dans notre sujet.
Un schéma des résultats des élections catalanes avec les sièges obtenus et leur traduction en pourcentages comme je les cherchais : < https://www.tdg.ch/monde/europe/vote-catalogne-replonge-inconnu/story/16899075  >
Les indépendantistes obtiennent 66% des suffrages et non 40% comme indiqué plus haut.
Les autres totalisent 63% apparemment.
En plus, 8 des sièges des indépendantistes ne pourront pas être occupés (les élus étant en exil ou en prison) : Rajoy compte bien la-dessus pour les mettre en difficulté ! (ce n'est pas dans l'article, sur une radio française)
Ajoutons aussi l'autre difficulté pour les indépendantistes qui est de s'entendre entre eux…
= drôle d'équation.

selber

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Re: Indépendance des Régions
« Reply #81 on: December 25, 2017, 10:33 »
I use Greece as an example of the use of EU power to defend itself against dissent, we differ on the culpability of Greece but that is not my issue here.
If that's not your problem then it should not be my problem either. But you call guilty - the euro . But the euro was the choice of the Greeks.  And the euro was a good chance for Greece . Until the crisis, prosperity and GDP grew in unprecedented ways . The Greeks have not only used the advantages of the euro, but abused  . The ECB has allowed, the guilt is actually at the euro. But the euros guilt is the guilt by those who used the euro .Merry Chrismas , John .
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 11:01 by selber »

selber

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Re: Indépendance des Régions
« Reply #82 on: December 25, 2017, 10:56 »
The Euro and T2 debt will as you suggest be the death of Catalan separatism, as it will be the death of the nation state within the EU after we leave; as I now reluctantly accept.
For that the like . I accept it so reluctantly that I do not want to accept it at all . But I guess I have to, probably. ,

coffejohn

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Re: Indépendance des Régions
« Reply #83 on: December 26, 2017, 01:26 »
For that the like . I accept it so reluctantly that I do not want to accept it at all . But I guess I have to, probably. ,

Maybe maybe not.

Merry Xmas selber.
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Lugdu

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Re: Catalans; succeed or fail they win.
« Reply #84 on: December 26, 2017, 13:52 »
Vaut-il mieux être endettés ou rencontrer des extra-terrestres ??

coffejohn

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Re: Catalans; succeed or fail they win.
« Reply #85 on: December 26, 2017, 15:32 »
Is it better to be in debt or meet aliens ??

Meet the aliens, borrow from them to pay off your debts; then repatriate the aliens. Both problems solved. :)
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Lugdu

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Re: Catalans; succeed or fail they win.
« Reply #86 on: December 26, 2017, 16:03 »
attention : la traduction n'est pas correcte ! Dans la série : les choix impossibles…
il ne s'agit pas d'étrangers, mais d'extra-terrestres "Is it better to be in debt or meet aliens?"

coffejohn

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Re: Catalans; succeed or fail they win.
« Reply #87 on: December 26, 2017, 18:33 »
attention : la traduction n'est pas correcte ! Dans la série : les choix impossibles…
il ne s'agit pas d'étrangers, mais d'extra-terrestres "Is it better to be in debt or meet aliens?"


Meet the aliens, borrow from them to pay off your debts; then repatriate the aliens back to Alpha Centauri. Both problems solved. :) :)
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coffejohn

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Re: Catalans; succeed or fail they win.
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2017, 11:21 »

Catalonia election: Pro-independence parties keep their majorities but what happens now?

From; http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-election-latest-spain-carles-puigdemont-mariano-rajoy-independence-parties-what-happens-a8125391.html

Quote
Elections in Catalonia have failed to clarify the restive region’s immediate future, exposing a deep and broad split between those for and against independence from Spain.

Elections in Catalonia have failed to clarify the restive region’s immediate future, exposing a deep and broad split between those for and against independence from Spain.


Quote
Eight of the separatist lawmakers who were elected, including Mr Puigdemont and Mr Junqueras, are either in jail or are fugitives from Spanish justice in Brussels, following the October secession bid.

By law, they can formally accept their seats as deputies without being present. However, parliamentary rules do not allow fugitive or jailed lawmakers to vote in absentia. This means that unless their status changes, the eight may have to renounce their seats and pass them on to other party members.

Otherwise, the separatists would be short of the majority necessary to elect a new government and pass laws in the regional assembly.

Mr Rajoy is expected to announce the date of the inaugural Catalan parliament session in the coming weeks, but rules say that it will need to be before 23 January.

At that opening session, the parliament chooses a house speaker who will call on a candidate to try to form a government within 10 days. The first investiture vote for a new Catalan president must be held by 6 February. 

In that first vote, the candidate needs an absolute majority of votes. If the candidate fails, he or she will have another chance within 48 hours when they need to have only more votes in favour than against. Failing that, the parties will have two months to form a government or fresh elections will be called.

Governing Catalonia, meanwhile, will remain in the hands of central authorities in Madrid, until a new Catalan Cabinet is chosen. Mr Rajoy has not ruled out invoking the constitutional article that allows him to seize control of the region if the new government breaks the law again by seeking unilateral independence.

So much for democracy in modern Europe.



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Lugdu

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Catalogne : actualité
« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2017, 12:00 »
Quote
En plus, 8 des sièges des indépendantistes ne pourront pas être occupés (les élus étant en exil ou en prison) : Rajoy compte bien la-dessus pour les mettre en difficulté ! (ce n'est pas dans l'article, mais sur une radio française)
c'est bien ce que j'avais compris et qui se passe… 8)