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Author Topic: Tolerance  (Read 176 times)

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Conti

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Tolerance
« on: February 06, 2018, 13:54 »
I CAN TOLERATE ANYTHING EXCEPT THE OUTGROUP

Quote
The worst reaction I’ve ever gotten to a blog post was when I wrote about the death of Osama bin Laden. I’ve written all sorts of stuff about race and gender and politics and whatever, but that was the worst.

I didn’t come out and say I was happy he was dead. But some people interpreted it that way, and there followed a bunch of comments and emails and Facebook messages about how could I possibly be happy about the death of another human being, even if he was a bad person? Everyone, even Osama, is a human being, and we should never rejoice in the death of a fellow man. One commenter came out and said:

I’m surprised at your reaction. As far as people I casually stalk on the internet (ie, LJ and Facebook), you are the first out of the “intelligent, reasoned and thoughtful” group to be uncomplicatedly happy about this development and not to be, say, disgusted at the reactions of the other 90% or so.

This commenter was right. Of the “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful” people I knew, the overwhelming emotion was conspicuous disgust that other people could be happy about his death. I hastily backtracked and said I wasn’t happy per se, just surprised and relieved that all of this was finally behind us.

And I genuinely believed that day that I had found some unexpected good in people – that everyone I knew was so humane and compassionate that they were unable to rejoice even in the death of someone who hated them and everything they stood for.

Then a few years later, Margaret Thatcher died. And on my Facebook wall – made of these same “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful” people – the most common response was to quote some portion of the song “Ding Dong, The Witch Is Dead”. Another popular response was to link the videos of British people spontaneously throwing parties in the street, with comments like “I wish I was there so I could join in”. From this exact same group of people, not a single expression of disgust or a “c’mon, guys, we’re all human beings here.”

I gently pointed this out at the time, and mostly got a bunch of “yeah, so what?”, combined with links to an article claiming that “the demand for respectful silence in the wake of a public figure’s death is not just misguided but dangerous”.

And that was when something clicked for me.

You can talk all you want about Islamophobia, but my friend’s “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful people” – her name for the Blue Tribe – can’t get together enough energy to really hate Osama, let alone Muslims in general. We understand that what he did was bad, but it didn’t anger us personally. When he died, we were able to very rationally apply our better nature and our Far Mode beliefs about how it’s never right to be happy about anyone else’s death.

On the other hand, that same group absolutely loathed Thatcher. Most of us (though not all) can agree, if the question is posed explicitly, that Osama was a worse person than Thatcher. But in terms of actual gut feeling? Osama provokes a snap judgment of “flawed human being”, Thatcher a snap judgment of “scum”.

I started this essay by pointing out that, despite what geographical and cultural distance would suggest, the Nazis’ outgroup was not the vastly different Japanese, but the almost-identical German Jews.

And my hypothesis, stated plainly, is that if you’re part of the Blue Tribe, then your outgroup isn’t al-Qaeda, or Muslims, or blacks, or gays, or transpeople, or Jews, or atheists – it’s the Red Tribe.

coffejohn

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2018, 21:51 »
Quote
You can talk all you want about Islamophobia, but my friend’s “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful people” – her name for the Blue Tribe – can’t get together enough energy to really hate Osama, let alone Muslims in general. We understand that what he did was bad, but it didn’t anger us personally. When he died, we were able to very rationally apply our better nature and our Far Mode beliefs about how it’s never right to be happy about anyone else’s death.

On the other hand, that same group absolutely loathed Thatcher. Most of us (though not all) can agree, if the question is posed explicitly, that Osama was a worse person than Thatcher. But in terms of actual gut feeling? Osama provokes a snap judgment of “flawed human being”, Thatcher a snap judgment of “scum”.

An interesting point, or two.

Proximity seems to play a part in your argument. Bin laden was a remote issue for Europe while Thatcher had a more immediate effect on the EU and UK.

Education also seems to play a part; not simply formal education but social enlightenment, the education gleamed from social interaction with sensible people. We in the UK are seeing a tendency for university students to attempt to prevent discussion of controversial subjects involving outspoken speakers, the snowflake generation!

 
Go solar, go slow.

selber

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2018, 00:29 »
@Conti
You have a good feeling for the most difficult theme. Tolerance - who does not deliver it is the troublemaker. But nobody should tolerate what he does not accept. Some things are accepted because you do not have to tolerate them. Things that do not affect you, that do not matter to you. But if them affect you, there is a right to intolerance.I think some from the bad letters came from Muslims in Europe. They took the right to intolerance. Our ideal - all faiths and nationalities under the roof of one country , and everyone will tolerate the other  will not work.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 00:46 by selber »

selber

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2018, 09:57 »
I get more and more annoyed about my own comments. I write what I think, but when I speak of a right to intolerance when you do not accept things, it is necessary to say that there are things you have to accept .The way I wrote it sounded pretty vicious. Tolerance is absolutely necessary, but only possible if we accept each other.If we do not accept but tolerate something, tolerance becomes hypocrisy.It is an important issue for me because opponents of unlimited immigration in Germany are accused of intolerance and xenophobia.I am neither intolerant nor xenophobic, whether Muslim, Christian or otherwise, every person is different and one does every wrong, if one believes to recognize him by his origin. That applies to the individual person. But is it also true for peoples or religions?The  I do not recognize on the individual human , but I recognize them. I believe that Muslims do not accept our way of life because God is so important to them, they can not accept atheists . And as I said before - true tolerance does not exist without acceptance.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 10:47 by selber »

Lugdu

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2018, 12:47 »
Alors que je connais et croise beaucoup de musulmans qui sont très contents de vivre comme nous vivons et qui gardent leurs pratiques et leurs idéaux pour la sphère privée. Mais comme ils sont fondus dans la population, ils ne se remarquent pas, ou plus…

selber

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2018, 17:42 »
Alors que je connais et croise beaucoup de musulmans qui sont très contents de vivre comme nous vivons et qui gardent leurs pratiques et leurs idéaux pour la sphère privée. Mais comme ils sont fondus dans la population, ils ne se remarquent pas, ou plus…
I believe you and understand your opinion. People are always grateful for freedom, but there is no freedom if nobody gives freedom. There is a difference between giving and taking. If you only see good people, that would be a phrase. The Muslims you know do you influence. But in large numbers, Muslims almost only know other Muslims and take the freedom that Muslims give.Is the state of emergency in France still or has Macron ended it? Young Muslims march through the streets at regular intervals, burning and stealing. Muslim students refused to participate in large numbers in the minute of silence for Charlie Hebdo. In their eyes, the journalists took a freedom that Muslims do not give.Also, the terrorists grew up in Europe in neighborhoods where almost only Muslims live. They are just the tip of the iceberg. In other countries with many Muslims, there are also big problems. Including Germany. Therefore, your politicians are not willing for such madness like the German asylum policy.People are never bad per se, it is the leaders, in the case of the Muslims, the religious leaders who create images of the enemy.All we can do is to help Muslims in Europe to integrate as best as possible - but you can not do that only with tolerance, you have to demand too .And the more they became , the harder it gets, beyond a certain point impossible.