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Conti

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The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« on: November 14, 2017, 11:12 »
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In May 2017, a group of conservative scholars and intellectuals met in Paris. They were brought together by their common concern about the current state of European politics, culture, society—and above all the state of the European mind and imagination. Through delusion and self-deception and ideological distortion, Europe is dissipating her great civilizational inheritance.

Instead of simply wringing their hands in fruitless anxiety, or adding yet another tome to the ample literature that diagnoses “the decline of the West,” the Paris participants believed it was important to make an affirmation, and to do so publicly. They expressed their attachment to “the true Europe,” and did so with reasons that can be recognized by all. In doing so, it was first necessary to give an account of this true Europe, which lies hidden beneath the fashionable abstractions of our age.

The result is, “A Europe We Can Believe In.” This Paris Statement is a ringing call for a renewed understanding of, and appreciation for, Europe’s true genius. It is an invitation to the peoples of Europe to actively recover what is best in our tradition, and to build a peaceful, hopeful, and noble future together.

A Europe We Can Believe In, in Čeština, Deutsch, English, Español, Français, Italiano, Magyar, Nederlands, Polski, Slovenščina, Svenska.

Philippe Bénéton (France)
Rémi Brague (France)
Chantal Delsol (France)
Roman Joch (Česko)
Lánczi András (Magyarország)
Ryszard Legutko (Polska)
Pierre Manent (France)
Janne Haaland Matlary (Norge)
Dalmacio Negro Pavón (España)
Roger Scruton (United Kingdom)
Robert Spaemann (Deutschland)
Bart Jan Spruyt (Nederland)
Matthias Storme (België)

Lugdu

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 16:41 »
bouh, c'est très long à lire… j'en suis seulement au § n°16.

Ceux qui écrivent cela, sont des gens qui ont une culture classique avec des œillères. Les européens sont nés des Romains (qui n'étaient pas chrétiens - sauf vers la fin- ) et ont tout appris du christianisme…
Les cultures, les valeurs locales n'existaient pas… Il n'y a jamais eu de migrations… ni d'apports.

Quant au chapitre sur 1968… on dirait des vieux trognons qui ont perdu leur foyer ! Est-ce le même plaidoyer dans toutes les langues, ou chaque version linguistique a des arguments propres ?
Les jeunes qui ont été éduqués avec ce rejet de libéralisation sociale sont effectivement déclassés dans la société contemporaine. Mais pourquoi ne condamnent-ils pas le libéralisme économique qui transforme la société en clientèle de consommation ? Les faibles en pauvres, etc…

certes je n'ai pas fini de lire cette prose ! Mais pour aujourd'hui j'ai ma dose…


« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 16:46 by Lugdu »

Conti

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 18:20 »
Est-ce le même plaidoyer dans toutes les langues, ou chaque version linguistique a des arguments propres ?

J'ai compris que c'est le même plaidoyer dans toutes les langues.  :)

coffejohn

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2017, 21:56 »

Quote
24. The work of renewal begins with theological self-knowledge. The universalist and universalizing pretensions of the false Europe reveal it to be an ersatz religious enterprise, complete with strong creedal commitments—and anathemas. This is the potent opiate that paralyzes Europe as a political body. We must insist that religious aspirations are properly the province of religion, not politics, much less bureaucratic administration. In order to recover our political and historical agency, it is imperative that we re-secularize European public life.

The above turgid quote from the Paris Statement, which I could not bring myself to read properly for fear of brain damage, demonstrates much of what is going wrong with the "Project".

I do not doubt that the intention of the statement was well intended and for those with the mental rigor to read and digest it the conclusions will be uplifting. For the rest of European humanity this paper will affirm their skepticism of the EU.

I would imagine EU citizens from ex-communist states will recognize the format from Soviet days.

If the EU wishes to communicate with the Twitter generation, to which I do not belong, it will have to hone it`s communication skills.
 
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Frank Zappa

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2017, 22:49 »
In May 2017, a group of conservative scholars and intellectuals met in Paris. They were brought together by their common concern about the current state of European politics, culture, society—and above all the state of the European mind and imagination.

Conti, honestly I am quite perplexed how much you switched from advocating lefty globalist opinions during the Obama era and euro zone crises to national conservative opinions in the migration crises and Trump era. Actually this switch looks to me a bit opportunistic and not very principled.

Lefty politicians like Varoufakis which you passionately supported during the euro crises do have quite a different view on the migration crises than you and the conservative scholars that you quoted above would also strongly differ from you concerning the euro.
"Government is the Entertainment division of the military-industrial complex."

selber

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2017, 23:56 »
Conti, honestly I am quite perplexed how much you switched from advocating lefty globalist opinions during the Obama era and euro zone crises to national conservative opinions in the migration crises and Trump era. Actually this switch looks to me a bit opportunistic and not very principled.

Lefty politicians like Varoufakis which you passionately supported during the euro crises do have quite a different view on the migration crises than you and the conservative scholars that you quoted above would also strongly differ from you concerning the euro.
I am surprised that you consider Varufakis a leftist politician . But seriously, left and right is not easy to distinguish, especially not  if national interests play a part . Varufakis represented the interests of the Greek people - claiming to represent the people raises the Left and the Right . That does not distinguish them. I do not know much about Italy, but since you are addressing the refugee issue, I just go to Germany. Leftists inviting refugees betray their own clientele. A welfare state that feels responsible for the world must fail because the world does not feel responsible for the social welfare state . Migants compete for affordable housing, not luxury apartments. Migrants compete in the low-wage sector, not official jobs. And last but not least - migrants compete for social assistance. Migrates raise crime and create a feeling of alienation and insecurity in the areas where the poorest live. Left immigration policy is high treason on the lower class, and who should follow left?Left tell the German people - people are so equal that they are interchangeable. But who wants to swap with the poorest in the world?Who opens his house for the poorest will get a poorhouse.

Frank Zappa

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 01:04 »
I am surprised that you consider Varufakis a leftist politician . But seriously, left and right is not easy to distinguish, especially not  if national interests play a part . Varufakis represented the interests of the Greek people - claiming to represent the people raises the Left and the Right . That does not distinguish them.

Varoufakis claimed himself that he is a Marxist and he has been a candidate for the radical lefty party "Syriza" at the Greek elections in 2015. You are right that he has also been quite flexible in his approach since they made a coalition with the right wing populist party ANEL. Nevertheless he is without a doubt generally seen as a leftist economist and politicians.

However I explicitly agree with you that the mixing with what people conceive as national interests lead to a situation where also non-leftists supported him.

The true left always claimed to have a globalist approach. As soon as you subtract the internationalist approach from leftist positions you go into the direction of national socialism (which is far right).
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selber

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2017, 01:37 »
As soon as you subtract the internationalist approach from leftist positions you go into the direction of national socialism (which is far right).
You make it too easy for you. Leftists do not try to liberate Afganisthan, which is not possible without the Afghans. Leftists want to liberate their own country from nationalism, and those who do not allow their own identity and culture have stopped being leftist. There is no world people, the world is made up by many peoples and who gives up his will, wants nothing and gets nothing.Leftists have become strong because of injustices in the country, but never because of wrongdoing in the world. The world is not a community of solidarity, and I personally do not want to show solidarity with many in the world .The world is as it is because of the peoples not because of dictators , Alcaida or whomever.A better world must be created locally, not from the west.

Frank Zappa

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2017, 08:20 »
Leftists have become strong because of injustices in the country, but never because of wrongdoing in the world.

Marx claimed "Workers of the world, unite!", communists wanted the world revolution and they have been singing the "Internationale".

Nowadays the mainstream left wants to use different methods, but the aims still go in the same direction to a more (also internationally) egalitarian order.

If most of the voters of the left have ever been real leftist (aspiring all aspects of  the official ideology of the party that they voted) can in fact be doubted. I doubt that a majority of them apart from lip service ever really wanted to share all their wealth not only with the wealthier classes, but also with the billions of poorer people in Africa and elsewhere.
"Government is the Entertainment division of the military-industrial complex."

selber

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2017, 10:56 »
Marx claimed "Workers of the world, unite!", communists wanted the world revolution and they have been singing the "Internationale".

Nowadays the mainstream left wants to use different methods, but the aims still go in the same direction to a more (also internationally) egalitarian order.

If most of the voters of the left have ever been real leftist (aspiring all aspects of  the official ideology of the party that they voted) can in fact be doubted. I doubt that a majority of them apart from lip service ever really wanted to share all their wealth not only with the wealthier classes, but also with the billions of poorer people in Africa and elsewhere.
Marx wrote "proletarians of all countries, unite". The proletariat is defined as a class in the class struggle ideology.And that raises the question of who belongs to the proletariat. The proletariat originated in the industrialized countries, feudal anarchic conditions prevail in Africa, and industry hardly exists. I do not think that one can speak at the refugees from proletarians.In addition, the proletariat should unite for the class struggle. First of all, they are not proletarians, and secondly, they are none of the class struggle. The Russians did not win the war because they united with the proletarians in the Wehrmacht. Unification, if unconditional, is surrender. That's what Marx would certainly not have meant.In addition, the classes mingle in Germany. Most people are workers and capitalists at the same time.Uniting without a common goal is not really a uniting - it is a meeting to fight against each other. Whoever does not understand that will loose.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 11:02 by selber »

Conti

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2017, 15:03 »
Conti, honestly I am quite perplexed how much you switched from advocating lefty globalist opinions during the Obama era and euro zone crises to national conservative opinions in the migration crises and Trump era. Actually this switch looks to me a bit opportunistic and not very principled.
I guess you mean that I argued some form of transfer union was necessary to make the Eurozone work, but I don't think I ever advocated a global transfer union between countries that do not share a single currency.
My opinions shifted because I think the status quo of the Eurozone is unsustainable and there is no political union in sight. I'm not advocating a break up of the EU, but in principle I favor a return to national currencies. Concerning the refugee crisis, we must not confuse the humanitarian crisis of Syria and the constant immigration flows of Africans to Europe. The EU should either control its external borders effectively or allow members to suspend Schengen. I don't remember advocating a borderless world during the Obama years.

Lefty politicians like Varoufakis which you passionately supported during the euro crises do have quite a different view on the migration crises than you and the conservative scholars that you quoted above would also strongly differ from you concerning the euro.
I supported Varoufakis' idea that Greece needed debt relief because the necessity of debt relief was supported by studies about debt crises in Latin America and Asia. Personally, I don't regard myself as a Marxist and never read books by Varoufakis. I accepted the euro when it was introduced because I'm not an economist and trusted the politicians who promoted it, but I now wish we had kept our national currencies.

Teapot S Russell

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 12:00 »
I would pay very little interest to this kind of text if it weren’t for Pierre Manent’s signature. Manent is a disciple of Raymond Aron (whom I revere) and brilliant scholar well versed in classical liberalism. His “Histoire intellectuelle du libéralisme : dix leçons” is a one of the small treasures in my library. But since 2006 and the publication of “La Raison des nations : Réflexions sur la démocratie en Europe” reading Manent has become very painful. I feel very sad to find his name on what I see as an illiberal manifesto. 

Conti

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 13:05 »
I would pay very little interest to this kind of text if it weren’t for Pierre Manent’s signature. Manent is a disciple of Raymond Aron (whom I revere) and brilliant scholar well versed in classical liberalism. His “Histoire intellectuelle du libéralisme : dix leçons” is a one of the small treasures in my library. But since 2006 and the publication of “La Raison des nations : Réflexions sur la démocratie en Europe” reading Manent has become very painful. I feel very sad to find his name on what I see as an illiberal manifesto.

Let's discuss "La raison des nations" a little.  :)

I have found an article in English about it.

Quote
The European Union’s grand project rests on the belief that nationalism is passé, indeed pernicious. Fascism’s mystic nationalism proved, on this view, that the nation-state impedes the spread of human rights, tolerance, and the rational adjudication of disputes—all essential to global peace. The nation-state should therefore give way to organizations like the E.U.: a transnational, secular institution that can bring about peace and prosperity by practicing what French intellectual Chantal Delsol calls “techno-politics”—a rational approach superior to the atavistic passions and superstitions that fired nationalism. But as the political philosopher Pierre Manent argues in a provocative new book, the European project, at least in its current form, represents a serious threat to democratic freedom. “If our nation suddenly disappeared and its bonds were dispersed,” Manent observes, “each of us immediately would become a stranger, a monster, to himself.”

A professor at the Centre des Recherches Politiques Raymond Aron, Manent has written extensively on democracy, nationalism, and liberalism. Democracy Without Nations comprises an earlier essay of the same name; a long monograph, La raison des nations, that appeared in France in 2006; and a lecture, “What Is a Nation?” Together with translator Paul Seaton’s overview of Manent’s writings, they make an excellent introduction to the work of an important thinker, whose ideas help us understand the temptations of the E.U.’s utopian dream—and its dangers.

What troubles Manent is “the erosion—perhaps the dismantling—of the political form that for so many centuries has sheltered the endeavors of European man. I refer to the nation.” He begins by examining the present European scene, dominated by a “passion for resemblance,” which he describes as a demand that we see others as ourselves and ignore cultural differences, national ones above all. Europeans also increasingly regard their nations’ pasts as “made up of collective crimes and unjustifiable restraints.” With the past demonized and current differences ignored, legitimacy comes to reside only in a kind of “human generality.”

Yet modern democracy first arose through nation-states, Manent reminds us. These political forms united particular peoples into “communion,” binding past, present, and future. Now, though, “this unifying principle of our lives has lost its connective force,” the national communion dissolving into “predemocratic” associations lacking the democratic nation’s power to assimilate disparate groups and values. Asks Manent: “What human association, old or new, will be able to bring consent and communion together in a viable way?”

Abandoning democratic nationhood puts at risk the individual rights, equality, and freedom that the nation-state made possible in the first place. In its stead, Europeans now have a massive bureaucracy, insulated from citizen accountability—indeed, Kafkaesque in its impenetrability. Self-government gives way to a new enlightened despotism, the “sum of agencies, administrations, courts of justice, and commissions that lay down the law—or, better, rules—for us more and more meticulously.”

The consequences of this shift from sovereign state to transnational abstraction show up with particular clarity in the European opposition to the death penalty—a desire, Manent believes, to strip the state of what Max Weber called its “monopoly of legitimate violence.” The rejection of the death penalty reflects a belief that contemporary societies have left the Hobbesian state of nature behind. Yet the persistence of violent crime puts the lie to this assumption. In ending the death penalty, and “thereby protecting the murderer of the person it could not protect,” the state “severs itself from the original source of its legitimacy.” September 11 also undermined the European project in its current form, Manent believes, by exploding the myth of mankind’s inevitable elimination of differences and revealing instead “the mutual impenetrability of human communities.”

The E.U.’s hostile stance toward its Christian heritage also reveals its essentially abstract and utopian nature. “Politics and religion,” Manent writes, “always and necessarily overlap in some measure, since both are modes of ‘communion.’” Since the religious communion preceded and created the conditions for the “sacred community” of the nation, the attempt to excise all religious sentiment from the state, as the E.U. seeks, entails abandoning that older communion, again with troubling consequences: “Once the nation is abandoned as a sacred community, the lay state itself is laicized and becomes merely one of the innumerable instruments of governance,” such as those of the E.U. bureaucracy.

Manent considers in this light Europe’s troubles with its Muslim immigrants, as well as the position of the dwindling number of European Jews. Distrustful of differences—particularly religious ones, given the volatile Islamist presence—modern Europe prefers a vague “humanity,” divorced from any particular community. But as Manent observes in analyzing Europe’s dislike of Israel, “empty—hollow and vain—is any humanism that claims to detach itself wholly from all responsibility toward or for a particular people, or from any distinctive view of the human good.”

The refusal to acknowledge its Christian roots, Manent believes, has led Europe to “the verge of self-destruction.” To meet this threat, he urges Europe “to become fully aware of the original Christian character of our nations”—but not to abandon the secular state. “The neutral state,” he writes, “and the Christian nation go hand in hand.”

coffejohn

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2017, 00:53 »

La raison des nations

Quote
Abandoning democratic nationhood puts at risk the individual rights, equality, and freedom that the nation-state made possible in the first place. In its stead, Europeans now have a massive bureaucracy, insulated from citizen accountability—indeed, Kafkaesque in its impenetrability. Self-government gives way to a new enlightened despotism, the “sum of agencies, administrations, courts of justice, and commissions that lay down the law—or, better, rules—for us more and more meticulously.”

I would select this paragraph as the"La raison des nations", not only is it clear and concise but it has a primal appeal; on a par with family/blood loyalty which requires no explanation, it is instinctive.

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Conti

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Re: The Paris Statement - A Europe we can believe in
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2017, 15:09 »
Conti, honestly I am quite perplexed how much you switched from advocating lefty globalist opinions during the Obama era and euro zone crises to national conservative opinions in the migration crises and Trump era. Actually this switch looks to me a bit opportunistic and not very principled.

Social scientists have long known how to turn liberals into conservatives in the lab - all they have to do is scare them.

I admit some of my latest posts were a bit one-sided, but the shift involves the Italian public as a whole. I don't think it is caused by Trump, rather by uncontrolled immigration to Italy, Islamist terrorism elsewhere in Europe and sanctimonious propaganda for multiculturalism by our left of centre government, by our mainstream media and finally by the Catholic Church.